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Topic: Pak38< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 51
Garrick_Udet Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 10 2008,22:44  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I had my 45ci peanut tank on it for testing and let out about 25 seconds of airflow and it only used 1000 psi which is about 1/4 of it's total capacity.  I'm going to get all my tanks filled and topped off tomorrow before we leave.  I'll be bringing the following
* 1x 92ci 4500psi
* 1x 45ci 4500psi
* 1x 68ci 3000psi - There may be a leak in this tank, I think it might be on the fill nipple so I took it off and teflon taped it
* 1x 20oz CO2 (due to temperature this would probably be a last resort).

Hopefully we should be able to get a couple dozen shots off with that air. If the paintball store has any carbon wrapped tanks on sale tomorrow I might have to buy another one  :;):


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 Post Number: 52
Garrick_Udet Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 14 2008,17:31 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Just to move the discussion from the WW2aa thread.  I've done some preliminary investigation into the use of a SCUBA tank to power the PAK.  I would be able to get a tank and a fill station to fill our existing HPA tanks for around $200.  Converting the SCUBA tank to directly feed the air system may be another matter.  I'll continue to look into it, but I wouldn't advocate any system using SCUBA unless it connected directly to a regulator that is rated for 3000psi input.  Why is that?  The brass fittings that I picked up for the existing air supply were purchased at Lowes and while I think the short brass fittings are thick enough to handle 850 psi that our paintball tanks are putting out, I wouldn't trust them to handle 3000psi.  That much pressure over any distance of piping or hose is dangerous.

In my opinion, hauling an 80cf SCUBA tank to the field and using it to refill our smaller tanks would be the best of both worlds.  We'd have plenty of air to fire the PAK off to our hearts' content and also maintain the maneuverability and light weight that we enjoy by using the smaller tanks on the gun.  This is also the easiest solution to the problem.

Franz and Otto, I'll leave it up to you.  If you're comfortable with using SCUBA as a refill option I'm cool with that, It'd also be nice to have a tank to haul up to my buddies cabin  for when we play out in the backwoods.

If you'd like me to try and airsmith a direct connection from a SCUBA tank I'll do my darnedest.


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 Post Number: 53
Ersatzjack Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 14 2008,18:35 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'd like to be able to shoot the gun 30-40 times per event.  It wouldn't have to be used in every battle as that might get tiring for the other side (it would get tiring) but for one or two scenarios it wouldn't wear out its welcome.  So could we do that with just paintball tanks?  I kinda need the little tanks I have for the STG-44 if ever I get any use out of it.  So I was hoping that your 96 CI tank would be the mainstay and if you can provide a re-fill station off of a scuba tank I would be willing to chip in.  PM me.   :D

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 Post Number: 54
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 02 2008,10:14 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

PAK AAR from ABZ May 31st Skirmish:

Overall the gun worked great, although here are a couple areas for potential improvements:

1.  Grapeshot HE rounds:  
The corn rounds were a good idea that can be improved even further.  In my opinion the energy of the airblast is being used to propel the sabot rather than the actual projectiles.  I think a small redesign to the Sabots and the ramrod would fix this problem.  Instead of having one end of the Sabot permanently sealed, we should have the Sabot be open on both ends.  To fill the round we could stuff wadding (cotton balls?) in one of the open ends and fill it with a smaller projectile (Cheap BBs or peas).  Then to allow for pre-filling of the rounds, we could stuff the open muzzle-facing end with wadding as well.  To make this work we would have to modify the ramrod by affixing a circular piece of metal (about 1/4" smaller in diameter than the barrel) to the end to make it more like a piston head.  This will allow us to load these modified AP rounds without potentially pushing the wadding and shot out while loading.  The idea behind these modified rounds is that all of the force of the air blast is directly pushing the shot out and the sabot would not leave the gun.  Hopefully this would result in higher FPS and longer range on the AP rounds.  The sabot would also have to be modified with a string or fishing lead attached to the back to ease extraction following a shot.

2. Water balloon AP rounds:
The first one I shot really sailed, then I exploded two in the barrel, I think the problem here (as was discussed on Saturday) is that the paper sabot is not heavy duty enough to cushion the balloon from the force of the airblast.  A dixie cup or some heavy duty tagboard might do the trick.  Also we need some kind of barrel-length ramrod and swab cloth (Kerrick's dead rags seem to work) to clean out the barrel following a misfire.  I also noticed that when I swabbed the barrel out after the 3rd skirmish, that most of the water came out pretty muddy.  I think some kind of muzzle cover on the gun while transporting it on the trailer would help keep dirt and dust out.  

3.  AP Nerf rounds:
  These worked great, totally rock solid, no need for improvement with these rounds.  Although adding a sonic locator beacon to them would help with locating the rounds following a skirmish (this wasn't a problem on Saturday as most of my shots were pretty short range).

4.  Smoke rounds
 The first one came out of the gun kind of goofy and only went about 25 feet.  The second one (which had the barbell sabot) flew so far we didn't even see the smoke cloud coming out of the woods.  The barbell sabot design is a winner.  The only hokey part is the fusing.  I was lighting the rounds and then inserting them into the gun with the fuse facing the muzzle.  This was a first timer mistake.  In the future, charge and aim the gun, insert the round with the fuse facing back, then we need one of those long candle lighters to stick in the back of the breach and light the fuse, then we can quickly close the breach and fire the gun before the smoke charge has actually lit, rather than wasting 5-10 seconds of smoke in the gun barrel.

5. Operator tips:
Saturday showed that the PAK can be effectively crewed by one highly motivated soldat.  Here are some of my tips that I learned from finally using the gun in Skirmish play.  First, start with your biggest air tank.  This will allow you to get the most shots off during the skirmish before having to change out the air source.  Second, if you're in a heavy firefight you need to memorize your procedure for operating the gun and what steps you're going to do in what order.  More than once on Saturday I got ahead of myself and loaded the gun but forgot to charge the air.  When preparing to fire a round here's what I found works best (for all ammo types except for smoke):
  1. Turn on the air to charge the gun
  2. Select and load your round, close the breach
  3. Aim the gun
  4. Once the gun is charged, turn off the air source,
  5.  Yell out the round type "HE" "AP" "Smoke" etc. and "Fire" while depressing both trigger buttons

Calling round type immediately prior to firing also lets the enemy know what type of round is coming at them.  This is useful if you're using AP rounds (Nerf rockets, which are really anti-tank rounds except when used against berms and buildings at which point they are anti-personnel HE - without the peas) to dislodge infantry from behind a bunker or building.  Then they know that when they hear a "Thump" on the other side of the wall they're dead.

All in all, I love working the PAK  :D

A few more tweaks and the Russians will truly fear our combined arms approach.


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 Post Number: 55
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 02 2008,11:45 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Lets make sure we know the round terminology.  "AP" stands for armor piercing and is the anti-tank round or Nerf rocket.  When using the nerf rocket against a building or berm/emplacement the firing officer still yells "AP" so that the targets prepare themselves for a nerf rocket coming their way but if the thump occurs real close nearby (I don't think we need to be sticklers on this) then call yourself out.  Using an HE round implies either a water balloon or a pea round and the firing officer yells "HE" so that the targets know a rash of peas/water is inbound.  Get wet or snipped by a pea and you die.  No proximity kills with this ammo type.

Not mentioned was the great ability we have to control the range.  The air should be regulated to 80-psi and then the gunner using the switch on the regulator can allow anywhere from 0-80 psi in the pressurized tube using the tube gauge as a guide.  With practice, he'll learn just how much PSI he needs to send that barbell shaped smoke round out to the required distance.  Also not experimented with yet since we don't have all the bugs worked out on the HE rounds is the indirect fire or shower of peas shot.  That will come with more testing.  I like the idea to hollow out the sabot and use a cotton ball at both ends to hold the peas in.  I'll try that here and report back.  Construction grade paper for water balloon fire is also the next plan.

I was impressed that a tank at 4500-psi provided about 8-10 shots.  That big tank that Garrick is getting fixed will be an event tank or at least provide maybe twenty shots.  That's pretty good.  I don't want the AT gun to steal the show so twenty shots would be enough but not overpower the day.

But it is nice to know that we have (or the Russians will have) a nice anti-vehicle weapon.  That nerf rocket is deadly accurate and has range.  The vehicles will be checked until it is taken out.  I guess we need artillery rules now.  :)


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 Post Number: 56
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 02 2008,11:51 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Garrick, good after action on the Pak.  Your tips are good ones.  The biggest problem with the gun remains the anti-personnel round.  Ersatzjack is going back to the drawing boards on that one.  I believe he will try a smaller round.  He's either going to go with a small cylindrical dried pea or perhaps pb's.  I don't think your suggestion of keeping the sabot in the gun will work.  First off, the barrel gets closed at the back by the valve and running a string or fish line from the sabot thru that closing mechanism will cause it to have a slight opening and may cut the line.  Even if it worked, how would the string or line be fastened to the pipe insulation sabot to prevent the sabot from ripping from the line once the air pressure is applied?  There's a lot of force there and tying it to the sabot isn't going to hold it in my opinion.  Mike will keep trying until something works.

The swab is probably a good idea.  Great, something else to manufacture and carry.  

The sonic locators on the nerfs?  We'd have to have the locaters, arm them, and they would have to sound long enough to recover them after the battle.  Is that really doable?  I don't think it is realistic.  They could also alter the aerodynamics of the nerf rocket.  Naw, we'll keep looking for them the old fashioned way and when they disappear, we'll restock.  Just another airsoft expense to absorb.  But hey, nobody said this hobby is cheap.

I laughed when you discussed the smoke rounds.  Yes, the barbell sabot is the one that Mike (Ersatzjack) thought would work best.  Yes, you've figured out the best way to light and fire the smoke round.

Overall, Mike and I are pretty pleased with that thing.  Not only is it photogenic and really fun but it serves the main purpose it will be used for and that is to take out vehicles from a decent range and we do want to incorporate vehicles into our games.  I'm glad you had a good time with the thing.

Finally, I think you forgot to add in your AA that the shield is very effective against pb fire and that the Russians enjoy the gun's use too as long as we don't overuse it.  I don't think that happened on Saturday.  It was only in the one town defense skirmish.  Overuse of artillery against a team without it tends to become a little unfair and boring.  In NY, biged likes to use his mortar and we're ok with it as long as it doesn't become part of every battle.


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 Post Number: 57
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 02 2008,13:11 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The idea of tying a line to the sabot was purely for its retrieval.  It's possible that it's not necessary and that it would just leave the barrel with the rest of the payload.  The concept of an open ended sabot came to me from the design for an Italian air-shotgun that I saw.  You simply have to open the end of the sabo so that the air can blow the actual payload out of it as Matt mentioned.  Worth trying I think.

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 Post Number: 58
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 02 2008,13:28 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A surgical style Kelly Clamps should be long enough to grasp and extract the foam sabot from the breach after firing as well.

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 Post Number: 59
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 02 2008,16:12 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I just tried the sabot with the cotton ball on both ends and navy beans for projectiles.  I had about 3 out of 50 beans hit some cardboard only a driveway's length away.  Pretty dissapointing.  I will keep trying this out.  But I think the stronger sabot for the water balloon might be the HE answer.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 02 2008,16:42 Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

What about a bunch of BB/dried peas wrapped in something that should not survive firing intact, like a paper towel?  If the diameter is close to that of the PAK barrel, you could pack (hur hur) in quite a few of them as a 'solid mass' and maybe get  better propulsion.
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59 replies since Dec. 15 2007,18:15 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >

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